STRUCTURAL ENGINEERING FORUM OF INDIA [SEFI]

Avinash_singh · SEFI Member Joined: 27 Oct 2016 Posts: 3

Dear members,

We should work towards awareness of people towards structural engineering,what is the role of structural engineer and how he can help you to acheive economy as well as strength in your structures specially in rural and semi urban areas where people don't understand what structural engineering is all about.In these area people heavily rely on labours and one thing I observed that they are happy in 3D modelling instead of structural design & stability.They just go for the construction of small to big residential and commercial structures after getting 3D model and without consulting structural engineer's and also the local authority allowing them to do so.

Avinash singh
M.tech (structure)
Sent from my iPhone 7=

Posted via Email

sangeeta_wij · ... Joined: 21 Apr 2016 Posts: 57

My dear SEFI friends
Rural or urban, our people are just not aware that structural safety needs to be built into their houses/industries by hiring directly, a competent structural design engineer. I offered to peer review the structural analysis,design and drawings to my next door neighbours, building a G+4 house costing about 3 Cr, and also a family friend.To my surprise, I found lot of hidden beams and when I asked for the Model to check deflections etc, the Architect sent me a 3D Model (perspective) and said that their structural associate has never let him down in last 45 years,and he wouldn’t like to embarrass him at this stage. I then modelled the structure in ETABS and clearly told my friend that it was not designed as an earthquake resistant structure and could only carry gravity loads.
However, the Client in this case decided to go with the Architect’s choice, as he had had a long association with him and could not embarrass him.
We can forget his case, as he is non technical and doesnot understand the implications of a poor design; but look at the one sided directive issued in Delhi Building Bye Laws, right under the nose of CPWD, to make stilts mandatory in all new structures, knowing fully well that none of the engineers/architects got it designed for 2.5 times the earthquake loads. And in new 1893-part-I, this option has also been dropped and open storeys are now recommended to have RC walls or bracings(or dampers?) installed as per clause 7.10.Who the hell is going to bell the cat now?
There are a lot of builders/developers who have coerced the Architects and structural engineers to go in for Flat Slabs, and Floating Columns and extreme soft storeys(remember gateway type buildings in NCR, where two high rise towers are joined and 5-6 floors added above, covering the entire area??) These are glaring examples of even expert structural engineers giving in to pressure from Mighty Clients.

I am really not sure structural safety is in demand , so who wants a structural engineer??

Best Regards
Sangeeta Wij
Managing Partner
SD Engineering Consultants LLP
Vice President(North),Indian Association of Structural Engineers,
Fellow and Chartered Engineer, Institution of Engineers
H333 New Rajinder Nagar(Lower Ground Floor),
New Delhi-110060
Ph:9811776210;01145128530

From:Avinash_singh [mailto:forum@www.buonovino.com]
Sent:17 May 2017 23:10
To:econf@www.buonovino.com
Subject:[E-CONF] Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers

Dear members,

We should work towards awareness of people towards structural engineering,what is the role of structural engineer and how he can help you to acheive economy as well as strength in your structures specially in rural and semi urban areas where people don't understand what structural engineering is all about.In these area people heavily rely on labours and one thing I observed that they are happy in 3D modelling instead of structural design & stability.They just go for the construction of small to big residential and commercial structures after getting 3D model and without consulting structural engineer's and also the local authority allowing them to do so.

Avinash singh
M.tech (structure)
Sent from my iPhone 7=

Posted via Email

ckarthi85 · SEFI Member Joined: 15 Nov 2008 Posts: 6

Dear members,I agreed with avinash post, lot of buildings are constructed without structural engineering involvement .Once of my cousin recently constructing the house, when we are discussing ,i asked him where you got that structural details, simply he told me ,we got house plan from one architect and we gave to Manson the Manson decided the reinforcement and other details . I shocked . some of the locations they provided very heavy reinforcement say 25mm rod but wherever required they have not provided the heavy reinforcement . I was seeing the construction with full of tears .They are not doing correctly and also they totally vanish the natural resources . In India this is the worst things still going on ,the government should take necessary action over this.

My mentor usually will say "buildings are like human beings the good structural are building the inside organs for buildings to with stand long life"

Thanks and regards,
c.karthikeyan

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Avinash_singh forum@www.buonovino.com)> wrote:

ckarthi85 · SEFI Member Joined: 15 Nov 2008 Posts: 6

Dear members,I agreed with avinash post, lot of buildings are constructed without structural engineering involvement .One of my cousin recently constructing the house, when we are discussing ,i asked him where you got that structural details, simply he told me ,we got house plan from one architect and we gave to Manson the Manson decided the reinforcement and other details . I shocked . some of the locations they provided very heavy reinforcement say 25mm rod but wherever required they have not provided the heavy reinforcement . I was seeing the construction with full of tears .They are not doing correctly and also they totally vanish the natural resources . In India this is the worst things still going on ,the government should take necessary action over this.

My mentor usually will say "buildings are like human beings the good structural engineers are building the inside organs for buildings to with stand long life"

Thanks and regards,
c.karthikeyan

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 1:47 PM, karthikeyan ckarthi85@gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Dear members,I agreed with avinash post, lot of buildings are constructed without structural engineering involvement .Once of my cousin recently constructing the house, when we are discussing ,i asked him where you got that structural details, simply he told me ,we got house plan from one architect and we gave to Manson the Manson decided the reinforcement and other details . I shocked . some of the locations they provided very heavy reinforcement say 25mm rod but wherever required they have not provided the heavy reinforcement . I was seeing the construction with full of tears .They are not doing correctly and also they totally vanish the natural resources . In India this is the worst things still going on ,the government should take necessary action over this.

My mentor usually will say "buildings are like human beings the good structural are building the inside organs for buildings to with stand long life"

Thanks and regards,
c.karthikeyan

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Avinash_singh forum@www.buonovino.com)> wrote:

alpa_sheth · ... Joined: 26 Jan 2003 Posts: 278

Dear Sangeeta,

I understand your exasperation. A lot of your concerns could be addressed if we had �competency based registration of structural engineers. RERA will not address any of the issues you raise. RERA has very little about �safety issues (other than financial protection to buyer) �embedded in it.�

While it is off-topic, I will address your comment re. revised IS 1893 doing away with 2.5 times design lateral force option for open ground storey structures since I was part of the 3 member drafting group of this code. This clause was eliminated as we �felt that a stiffness deficiency cannot be made good by providing over-strength. We need to address a stiffness deficiency with compensatory additional stiffness.�

Regarding your other point, the reason we do not see too many three and four storey structures fail in moderate earthquakes despite having no seismic resistant features is that even though they may be designed as gravity RC frame structures with �infill masonry panels, if constructed well, ��they seem to have innate ability to perform similar to confined masonry structures - but only to a point.� They will show their deficiencies beyond �threshold earthquake shaking.� Thus �many thousands of three and four storey buildings in Ahmedabad survived �the Bhuj 2001 earthquake even though they were not designed for earthquakes but the same type of buildings did not survive in Bhachau and Bhuj where shaking intensity was many times more than in Ahmedabad.�

best regards,
Alpa�
�

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 1:32 PM, sangeeta_wij forum@www.buonovino.com)> wrote:

csazad · SEFI Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 5

RERA-An Act in force in Bharat/India

But it cannot be understood by common public & buyers
It is again suggested that Buyers should utilise professional engineers engineering services to deal with promoters & builders in terms to resolve engineering & technical issues

Engineering is complicated, which promoters can misuse to mislead buyers through agents & officers

Allowance of 4 years to promoters to do balance of works in NOIDA is a current example of abusing this Act by officers & promoters

Public is advised to be careful or else, they would suffer further time wise as well as financially

Definition of Engineer exists in RERA, but role not defined clearly

People should know about this role in every respect
It is Engineer, who is responsible for structure & all items to be constructed on site or offsite

Promoter employs engineer for his works
Contractor employs engineer for work on contract of construction, between promoter & contractor
There should be engineer on behalf of buyers to further supervise & superintendent all works done by promoter & contractor
Buyers engineer shall coordinate & ask all questions to be required be clarified from contractor & promoter

Buyers are designated clientage, who have every right to utilise professional services, employing Chartered Engineer (India) & Professional Engineer(India) so that they get all deliveries in time, for which buyers make payments.

It is not an easy task to check all parties working on project
Regulator may not be well qualified from building engineering field

Therefore, buyers require to protect themselves through use of professionals or else, problems shall never go away
Er.Chandra Shekhar Azad
Chartered Engineer(India)

csazad · SEFI Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 5

Dear members

RERA-An Act in force in Bharat/India

But it cannot be understood by common public & buyers
It is again suggested that Buyers should utilise professional engineers engineering services to deal with promoters & builders in terms to resolve engineering & technical issues

Engineering is complicated, which promoters can misuse to mislead buyers through agents & officers

Allowance of 4 years to promoters to do balance of works in NOIDA is a current example of abusing this Act by officers & promoters

Public is advised to be careful or else, they would suffer further time wise as well as financially

Definition of Engineer exists in RERA, but role not defined clearly

People should know about this role in every respect
It is Engineer, who is responsible for structure & all items to be constructed on site or offsite

Promoter employs engineer for his works
Contractor employs engineer for work on contract of construction, between promoter & contractor
There should be engineer on behalf of buyers to further supervise & superintendent all works done by promoter & contractor
Buyers engineer shall coordinate & ask all questions to be required be clarified from contractor & promoter

Buyers are designated clientage, who have every right to utilise professional services, employing Chartered Engineer (India) & Professional Engineer(India) so that they get all deliveries in time, for which buyers make payments.

It is not an easy task to check all parties working on project
Regulator may not be well qualified from building engineering field

Therefore, buyers require to protect themselves through use of professionals or else, problems shall never go away
Er.Chandra Shekhar Azad
Chartered Engineer(India)

ajay2612 · SEFI Regulars Joined: 14 Oct 2013 Posts: 29

结构工程师尚未认可our country. ajay On Thu, 18 May 2017 14:02:22 +0530 "alpa_sheth" wrote > Dear Sangeeta, > > > I understand your exasperation. A lot of your concerns could be addressed if we had �competency based registration of structural engineers. RERA will not address any of the issues you raise. RERA has very little about �safety issues (other than financial protection to buyer) �embedded in it.� > > > While it is off-topic, I will address your comment re. revised IS 1893 doing away with 2.5 times design lateral force option for open ground storey structures since I was part of the 3 member drafting group of this code. This clause was eliminated as we �felt that a stiffness deficiency cannot be made good by providing over-strength. We need to address a stiffness deficiency with compensatory additional stiffness.� > > > Regarding your other point, the reason we do not see too many three and four storey structures fail in moderate earthquakes despite having no seismic resistant features is that even though they may be designed as gravity RC frame structures with �infill masonry panels, if constructed well, ��they seem to have innate ability to perform similar to confined masonry structures - but only to a point.� They will show their deficiencies beyond �threshold earthquake shaking.� Thus �many thousands of three and four storey buildings in Ahmedabad survived �the Bhuj 2001 earthquake even though they were not designed for earthquakes but the same type of buildings did not survive in Bhachau and Bhuj where shaking intensity was many times more than in Ahmedabad.� > > > best regards, > Alpa� > � > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 1:32 PM, sangeeta_wij wrote: > --auto removed--

Posted via Email

ahujavipul · General Sponsor Joined: 26 Jan 2003 Posts: 230

I agree with Alpa on the Stiffness vs strength issue.

However we are loosing focus on this forum regarding the impact of RERA on our daily lives as working professionals.

保障做什么我们需要建立我们的设计n contracts in the new environment?

What is the expanded scope of work for the practicing structural engineer? Items like signing off the extent of construction done for the purpose of releasing payment by the bank--so we need to add the cost of a quantity surveyor in our contract. Potentially will our final payment be released 5 years (or 10 years) after possession (or completion certificate or design completion). We would have to build in costs accordingly.

How about increased liability--pre-RERA vs post RERA? We need to add professional liability insurance premium increases.

How does a firm protect itself from competition from fire-brand fly-by-night operator working out of a basement still working at rock bottom prices--un-nerved by the changed environment.

We all have been disgusted that there is no Licensing or implementation of "charter" --legally/practically. That doesn't change.

It would be good to get some legal opinion on these focused issues. Now that the law is passed we will have to mold ourselves into it; changes to the law is a far cry for now.

Regards,

Vipul Ahuja

ykalamkar · ... Joined: 26 Jan 2003 Posts: 108 Location: Nagpur

Dear Members,
我们可以看到很多不适当的设计结构n, details, having floating columns, hidden beams etc…. It is one part if the design is not done by structural engineers, but in the reality, many structural designers issue drawings with all such issues. Question really arises on OUR community. I know one city where commissioner asked the Architects to certify that the plans executed are same as the sanctioned one. No architect given the certificate and there was no OC for any flat scheme in his tenure. I think awareness is required within structural engineers first, then in general public.

Thanks & Regards
Yogesh Kalamkar

From:sangeeta_wij [mailto:forum@www.buonovino.com]
Sent:May 18, 2017 1:33 PM
To:econf@www.buonovino.com
Subject:[E-CONF] Re: Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers

My dear SEFI friends
Rural or urban, our people are just not aware that structural safety needs to be built into their houses/industries by hiring directly, a competent structural design engineer. I offered to peer review the structural analysis,design and drawings to my next door neighbours, building a G+4 house costing about 3 Cr, and also a family friend.To my surprise, I found lot of hidden beams and when I asked for the Model to check deflections etc, the Architect sent me a 3D Model (perspective) and said that their structural associate has never let him down in last 45 years,and he wouldn’t like to embarrass him at this stage. I then modelled the structure in ETABS and clearly told my friend that it was not designed as an earthquake resistant structure and could only carry gravity loads.
However, the Client in this case decided to go with the Architect’s choice, as he had had a long association with him and could not embarrass him.
We can forget his case, as he is non technical and doesnot understand the implications of a poor design; but look at the one sided directive issued in Delhi Building Bye Laws, right under the nose of CPWD, to make stilts mandatory in all new structures, knowing fully well that none of the engineers/architects got it designed for 2.5 times the earthquake loads. And in new 1893-part-I, this option has also been dropped and open storeys are now recommended to have RC walls or bracings(or dampers?) installed as per clause 7.10.Who the hell is going to bell the cat now?
There are a lot of builders/developers who have coerced the Architects and structural engineers to go in for Flat Slabs, and Floating Columns and extreme soft storeys(remember gateway type buildings in NCR, where two high rise towers are joined and 5-6 floors added above, covering the entire area??) These are glaring examples of even expert structural engineers giving in to pressure from Mighty Clients.

I am really not sure structural safety is in demand , so who wants a structural engineer??

Best Regards
Sangeeta Wij
Managing Partner
SD Engineering Consultants LLP
Vice President(North),Indian Association of Structural Engineers,
Fellow and Chartered Engineer, Institution of Engineers
H333 New Rajinder Nagar(Lower Ground Floor),
New Delhi-110060
Ph:9811776210;01145128530

From:Avinash_singh [mailto: forum半岛软件下载@www.buonovino.comforum@www.buonovino.com)]
Sent:17 May 2017 23:10
To:econf@www.buonovino.com(econf@www.buonovino.com)
Subject:[E-CONF] Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers

Dear members,

We should work towards awareness of people towards structural engineering,what is the role of structural engineer and how he can help you to acheive economy as well as strength in your structures specially in rural and semi urban areas where people don't understand what structural engineering is all about.In these area people heavily rely on labours and one thing I observed that they are happy in 3D modelling instead of structural design & stability.They just go for the construction of small to big residential and commercial structures after getting 3D model and without consulting structural engineer's and also the local authority allowing them to do so.

Avinash singh
M.tech (structure)
Sent from my iPhone 7=

Posted via Email